USA 2014Video Coverage

Josh Burns Knows the Importance of Partnerships | Casual Connect Video

August 13, 2014 — by Catherine Quinton


“Not so long ago, it was all about North America, Western Market,” Josh Burns told his audience at Casual Connect USA 2014. “But the reality is today, the market in Asia, depending on what you define as Asia, is very significant.”


Josh Burns is a consultant in the games industry working with game developers, game publishers, and service providers focused on online and mobile gaming to support key business areas, including strategy, market intelligence, marketing, game publishing, business operations, product management, and business development. Before becoming a consultant, Burns worked at 6waves, leading the US product management team for one of the largest publishers of games on Facebook, iOS, and Android, where he managed and launched over 100 apps including those from top developers such as Kabam, Nexon, and Atari, as well as games based on IP from Eminem, Disney, Dungeons & Dragons, Starz, and BBC.

Helping to Find the Opportunities

Much of his work these days is focused on helping smaller to mid-size mobile game developers find opportunities and partners to bring their games to market. The rising marketing and development costs, as well as decreasing organic visibility for new games in the app store, has made partnerships much more important for the majority of mobile developers. It also makes Burns’ work much more valuable to developers, especially smaller studios, which are most likely to be interested in considering partners to bring their games to market, while larger studios are more likely to be interested in partnering to release content from external developers.

The trend of rising costs and decreasing organic visibility was one of the primary reasons Burns formalized his consulting business. The proudest moment of his career occurred when he decided to take the plunge and go out on his own as a consultant. He enjoys working with a varied group of companies and helping them with a diverse set of issues related to their businesses.

Josh Burns at Casual Connect USA 2014
Josh Burns at Casual Connect USA 2014

Burns emphasizes that it is difficult to predict what the next important trend in the industry will be. He believes we will start to see mobile games with production levels starting to reach those of PC and potentially consoles, perhaps in less than three years. As well, since the mobile market is already very crowded, he is waiting to see what the next mass market gaming platforms will be.

A Mobile Focus

His focus these days is almost entirely on mobile, so it is not unexpected to find his gaming is only on his smartphone or tablet. He is playing so many different games from the mobile market and developer partners that he rarely plays any one game on a regular basis. Right now, he is playing Puzzle Raiders, a new match-3 game from one of his partner studios. The core gameplay is like Candy Crush, but with an exploration theme and more depth and complexity.

Burns is enthusiastic about the F2P model because it allows developers to reach the mass market with their games; on mobile, this market is truly global.

Burns is enthusiastic about the F2P model because it allows developers to reach the mass market with their games; on mobile, this market is truly global. Small development teams are able to scale their games to millions of downloads and users, something that previously was extremely difficult except for the largest gaming companies. But, he admits, “The downside is that there are some bad actors in the industry abusing the F2P model and engaging in questionable activities to generate revenue.”

When not working, Burns enjoys running, DJing for friends and charity events, growing his already too large music collection, and playing with his one-year-old daughter.


BusinessDevelopmentExclusive InterviewsIndustryOnline

Stephen Lee on the Importance of Culturalization

May 15, 2014 — by Catherine Quinton

Stephen Lee, Vice-President, 6waves

As the Executive Director and Head of Publishing at 6waves, Stephen Lee spends his days speaking with developers from all over the world. And, while 6waves is one of the leading global publishers of independent social and mobile games, each developer may bring very different games, experiences, skills, resources, and needs to the publishing discussion. He says, “Having the flexibility to adjust to your partners, understand their situation, and come up with ideas that best address their needs, while still making business sense to all parties, is key.”

He maintains that flexibility is also the key to succeeding in all aspects of the games industry, since the industry changes more rapidly than most. Unless companies and individuals can adjust and pivot quickly, they won’t survive.

For the Love of Games

On a typical day at 6waves, Lee spends time with the team identifying high-potential games to approach for publishing, planning for the upcoming games in the pipeline, and exploring how to help the existing publishing portfolio. And they all spend time testing games that are being considered for publishing, although Lee has had to cut back on this lately.

“Having the flexibility to adjust to your partners, understand their situation, and come up with ideas that best address their needs, while still making business sense to all parties, is key.”

Gaming is not yet an established industry in Hong Kong, but it is growing steadily. Hong Kong is on an island, both literally and figuratively, so Lee is usually talking with people remotely using conference calls or Skype. As a result, he feels the best part of his job is traveling and participating in game shows, where he can meet others in the industry, catch up with peers in person, meet one-on-one with developers, and get a firsthand look at what is happening in the industry. He insists, “Any time I’ve had the pleasure of meeting developers that have worked on games I have enjoyed on a personal level is gravy on top!”

Lee has been a gamer as long as he can remember, but, with very strict parents, any time he was allowed to play was a special treat. And the love of games has stayed with him to this day. After working in Asia for 10 years, he knew he wanted to be a part of an industry he felt genuinely passionate about. The opportunity at 6waves came at just the right time, and he seized it.

Working in the Industry

At 6waves, he began on the business development team doing work similar to what he had done in his previous careers. Since then, he has had the opportunity to learn a great deal from colleagues and peers in the industry, especially about game development and product management. He emphasizes, “We’re very lucky to be working in a field with so many talented people. It’s non-stop learning and somewhat awe-inspiring. So I leverage my position to broaden my game knowledge as best I can.”

The 6waves team

Now, Lee leads the 6waves publishing business for both social and mobile games, which includes the business development, product management, localization, customer service and community management teams.

Lee believes the greatest challenge facing the games industry today is discovery. Technology is evolving and game experiences continue to improve, but most games will not reach a meaningful number of players in a cost-effective manner. Although he sees no easy or simple fix to the problem, there are a number of factors that may help: improvements by platforms to more easily surface relevant and quality content to their customers, growth of cross-platform technologies to make games more readily available on as many consumer touch-points as possible, evolution of successful publishers to help with the scale and services developers need, and innovation by developers to bring more unique and interesting games and ideas to the market.

The Perks of a Publisher

A developer should always keep an open mind to consider publishing support in some fashion or another, Lee maintains. There are large developers in the industry with the resources to successfully launch a game worldwide, but no one company is best at every game genre or in every language and market. If the business terms make sense and both partners are committed to success, developers may achieve much more with a publishing partner that has specific areas of strength than they could realize on their own.

6waves has partnered with many developers to deliver great games

In today’s challenging climate for games, with the console market share shrinking and platforms becoming saturated, developers are left hoping for the next big hit or relying on work-for-hire projects. Not every game can be a hit, but publishers can help developers reduce risks by fronting marketing costs, providing advances to help developers recoup their investment or improve their cash flow, and, in some cases, funding projects altogether.

Lee points out that, although developers can raise funds from more sources than ever before, experienced publishers have established networks and a wealth of experience with optimizing games. So publishers can help developers market their games more efficiently, as well as target and retain users with better LTV.

He also realizes that most developers want to focus their time and energy on making great games. With their existing infrastructure and experience, publishers can help look after all the other things developers may not have budget, bandwidth or desire to handle, such as Live Ops, QA, Customer Service, Community Management, Localization, Hosting and others.

When building a relationship with partners, Lee listens carefully while reminding himself that developers put their all into making great games: time, energy, blood, sweat and tears. He says, “If developers put their trust into 6waves as their publishing partner, we owe them the same level of trust and commitment, and that means delivering the best quality service and giving their games the best opportunities to succeed.”

The latest game 6waves has launched is Cosmic Garden on Facebook
The latest game 6waves has launched is Cosmic Garden on Facebook

The Future

Lee believes the future of the games industry will see the growth of cross-platform games continuing, and most high quality games launching with a multi-platform, multi-device strategy. Already, some console titles are on mobile, and as this trend continues, gamers will be able to continue playing their favorite game wherever they are.

He has noticed considerable hype around the increased penetration of smart phones and wearable tech, but insists, “What’s largely missing in this discussion is that software will be just as important to success as hardware or the form factor. There will be a lot of people throwing their hats into the space, but after some shaking out, the cream will rise to the top. Hopefully, this will lead to more platforms for games to take off on.”

He also sees social elements continuing to be important factors in the most successful games, although, ironically, this usually leads to players being less social in the real world.

Looking at Asia

For developers to get the most mileage from their games, they need to carefully consider Asia, according to Lee. 6waves has an office with a large number of different nationalities, and a strong and diverse mix of cultural influences. This has served them well in building their global audience and helping developers to bridge the gap between East and West. People tend to think of Asia as a single region, but there are important cultural sensitivities between each Asian country and language.

People tend to think of Asia as a single region, but there are important cultural sensitivities between each Asian country and language.

Lee points to China as an example of how complex this situation is. For a developer to localize a game properly for the Chinese audience, they would first have to localize the language to Simplified Chinese for players in Mainland China. They also need to localize into Traditional Chinese for players in Hong Kong and Taiwan, but the spoken language of the characters is completely different in these two regions, Cantonese in Hong Kong and Mandarin in Taiwan. And each market has unique cultural references and slang. Most likely, the graphics would have to be changed to make the characters more appealing and features added to cater the gameplay to local audiences. It’s more than localization; it’s culturalization.

Asia is huge from a revenue perspective, but it is fragmented. Lee insists, “To really get the most from their games, developers should have a publisher willing to drill down to this detailed level, not only with localization, but also with online and offline marketing; this operates differently from other parts of the world.”

This is the area 6waves is focusing on, believing it is how they can help developers the most. They have local teams in the largest Asian mobile markets, strong relationships with local platforms, and an established publishing track record. Lee believes 6waves is in a great position to become the go-to partner for local publishing in Asia.

Stephen Lee will be discussing what developers should keep in mind when getting ready to launch and grow their games globally during Casual Connect Asia 2014. Find out more about his session on the conference website.


Video Coverage

Arthur Chow: Free to Play Publishing Pioneer | Casual Connect Video

May 30, 2013 — by David Nixon


Arthur Chow has been excited about the internet content business since he became involved with Yahoo thirteen years ago. If he was not in the games industry, he would certainly be involved in some type of internet- or mobile-related services, but he says, “I find the games industry tremendously exciting, with all the constant changes and developments.”

Internet Media, Finance, and Games

Chow’s work for Yahoo led him to an understanding of the internet media and consumer behavior. With Turner Broadcasting, he had the chance to work on a regional basis. His first job in banking gave him the business acumen to set up his own business. He credits these experiences to his success when he started 6waves, “All of these experiences gave me the expertise I needed to succeed in managing the operations of 6waves, and shaping strategy for the company.”


Leading the Way in Social Games and Publishing

Arthur Chow
Arthur Chow

Arthur is co-founder and Chief Executive Officer of 6waves, a leading global company in the social gaming sector. As Arthur saw the rapid growth of Facebook, he realized there would be a market for localized apps in a variety of countries. “I felt I could serve the needs of users by creating these localized apps,” Chow recalls, “As I saw the trend of Facebook users playing games, I felt 6waves had an opportunity in that arena as well.”

“I also realized we could introduce even more games to 6waves users by cooperating with other developers and that led to the development of 6waves games publishing business on Facebook,” said Chow, “While there were certainly challenges in adapting a publishing model to a game-service business, the result was worth it.” Though partnerships with developers all over the world, 6waves achieved reduction in both resources and costs necessary to develop a game and diversified the company’s operational risks.
We must never become complacent about what we have achieved
The need to adapt to the fast changing environment and conditions is a constant challenge. At 6waves, Arthur and his teams deal with this by staying alert and nimble. Arthur reminds us “We must never become complacent about what we have achieved.  We are still going well in the industry, hence, we stay.”

A Defining Moment

In 2012, Arthur was the winner of the prestigious Ernst & Young Entrepreneur China award in the category of Emerging Entrepreneur. “This was definitely a defining moments for me and 6waves,” remembers Chow, “I was so proud of our team’s accomplishments.”

5th Anniversary

Asia is the place Arthur believes is ideal to be involved in the games industry
Asia is the place Arthur believes is ideal to be involved in the games industry. It has the world`s largest population, with China the largest single market in terms of gamers. Japan and Korea have the highest ARPU in the world. New platforms, such as Kakao and LINE, are emerging. In Arthur’s words, “The opportunities are enormous!”

Exclusive InterviewsOnlineSpecialsThe Ouya Engima

Jim Ying of 6waves explores OUYA: What’s its potential?

October 3, 2012 — by Mike Griffin

Jim Ying is SVP of Publishing at independent developer 6waves. Prior to this, he spent five years at Microsoft as manager in the Xbox division, working on major franchises such as Halo and Age of Empires. Like so many of us, Jim has been carefully monitoring the progress of the forthcoming Ouya console, and his considerable experience in both console and mobile development provides a wide spectrum analysis of the potential challenges in store for the device and its digital services.

Gamesauce: Considering your current position at 6waves and an extensive console background in the Xbox business, you must have a pretty informed perspective on the Ouya. What’s the first question that popped into your head when you saw the Kickstarter console?

Jim: My first question back then was: are they really going to be able to get it out there for $99 bucks?

GS: You know all about the console ecosystem and how tough it can be to introduce new business models.

I saw plenty of models in my past when I worked in the Xbox division at Microsoft for five years, specifically on big first-party titles. I managed games like the Halo and Age of Empires franchises, and was project lead on partner games like Shadowrun and Too Human. So I’ve assembled quite a bit of console experience to compare this to.

GS: Do you think the Ouya needs to look to current consoles, in terms of following an established service model?

I think there are challenges unique to the console space, regardless of console. For the manufacturer, you start by selling the box at a loss, and you make that up through royalties on the games. The idea that the Ouya people will charge $99 for the device, and then take a 30% portion of the games to generate revenue, I kind of understand the choices there.

GS: The public seems to have a handle on the model, if you look at the tens of thousands of folks that have plunked down their cash for a console at launch.

I think generally, among gamers and fanboys, the Ouya has become this compilation of potential. Like, “Wow, it’s ninety-nine dollars. It’s Android, it’s Tegra 3, it looks great …” etcetera. Granted, things like the dual stick controller and touchpad do look pretty great – awesome design. And they’re saying the console could end up being about the size of a Rubik’s Cube, which could be pretty amazing.

They’re saying the console could end up being about the size of a Rubik’s Cube, which could be pretty amazing.

GS: That tiny size should make it easy to move around the house, and these days most households have several screens. But is there room for this console in the market?

My overall impression is still a bit skeptical, but as a player always looking for new experiences, I’d love to see this device happen. Right now, the console space is still fairly exclusionary, which is why to some extent guys like Apple have been able to snag such interest and market share. Anyone can jump right in; there’s some curation and preparation, but you don’t need to go through a rigorous process to get games on there. On the other hand, you have Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo still holding the keys in terms of which games get through to their devices and which don’t.

GS: Not to mention, strict checklists and compliance rules, and all that fun stuff we associate with developing in the console space. Presumably with Ouya, a lot of that baggage is going to disappear.

We’d love to see that happen. The reality is that it comes down to execution: can they get the box made with solid, stable hardware? Can they get a broad enough audience to sign on, and can they curate the games wisely? Even if you look at Apple right now: Hundreds of people are building content for them, but the discovery rate still remains a huge problem.

A lot of people have started to spend a lot of money on user acquisition, instead of relying on all sorts of unproven vendors that are often a little sketchy. So the right developers could jump on Ouya and start pumping out high quality titles, but the question remains: how easy will it be to actually find that content?

A lot of people have started to spend a lot of money on user acquisition, instead of relying on all sorts of unproven vendors that are often a little sketchy.

GS: There’s also a concern that you might see a glut of low-end Android titles rapidly ported to Ouya, as many developers won’t be in a position to risk funding an exclusive title, or dedicating meaningful resources to an Ouya version.

Agreed, we’ll probably see that, and we’ll probably see a lot of high end phone and tablet games coming over. I know there’s one or two studios committed to exclusive launch titles optimized for Ouya. I’d love to see more of that happen, because it’s really going to need those unique designs that show what the console is all about.

GS: We probably won’t see more than a handful of games on Ouya at first that actually exploit the console. When do you foresee developers putting serious effort into Ouya games, versus, say, simply porting high end iPad and tablet titles?

You could look at it this way: When the Xbox 360 and PS3 came along, the PS3, at least functionally and technically, did have higher capabilities. Other than the first-party side, nobody really exploited that at first because most developers wanted a game that played on both platforms. So if I’m a developer investing my time and money into an exclusive console game, even if it’s a high end game, and the Ouya becomes a viable platform, I’m still going to be looking into the lowest common denominator – the mass market Android player – early on. Some teams won’t have a choice.

GS: That’s a pretty sensible response, but I’ve been asking people: choosing a low risk title, maybe an existing phone or tablet project, and slapping on some gamepad support and 1080p resolution – doesn’t this compromise the purity of making an Ouya game?

It’s where we run into the chicken and egg problem. Imagine if they were launching a brand new console? The barrier would be even greater. At least now, this is for a well known platform in Android. But if I were developing for it, unless I had ridiculous amounts of money or maybe big co-funding from the Ouya backers, I simply can’t bet my studio’s fortunes on an exclusive for an unproven console.

But if I were developing for it, unless I had ridiculous amounts of money or maybe big co-funding from the Ouya backers, I simply can’t bet my studio’s fortunes on an exclusive for an unproven console.

GS: With the potential for so many slipshod conversions of phone and tablet games to Ouya, could “bad ports” become an early stigma associated with the console?

I think the reality is we’re going to see plenty of games early on, and the majority of the ones that succeed will probably be regular Android games. If the console is successful, suddenly a lot of people, and maybe those same established Android developers, will look to really harness the Ouya. On the other hand, if we aren’t seeing a meaningful amount of new, unique content for it near the beginning, right away that’s going to get consumers asking, “Why do I need this in the first place?”

GS: The fact that it will stream Netflix is a nice bonus, but services like OnLive could make a difference. For a gamer, having a bunch of casual and core Android titles is great, but being able to play high end PC games could be the cherry on top. 

I think the whole OnLive element brings up a bigger question: if OnLive-type services become really successful and more widespread, do you even need a dedicated console with its own software? In theory, OnLive can provide game content that is far more advanced than what the Ouya can offer – or at this stage, more advanced than the current consoles.

So the people interested in that kind of feature are the hardcore gamers, guys that aren’t satisfied by smaller phone-style games. If they have that experience to compare to on Ouya, the console’s native games might not get as much play.

In theory, OnLive can provide game content that is far more advanced than what the Ouya can offer – or at this stage, more advanced than the current consoles.

GS: Most OnLive users tend to be players who don’t have the computer spec required to play the latest, most sophisticated titles. There’s already that built-in expectation, so I don’t think having OnLive on Ouya will result in a direct comparison to the console’s own capabilities. Not to mention, the PC developers…

…They’re still making money when you stream their game on Ouya.

GS: Right, so it’s not exactly cannibalizing the console’s native games market.

That brings up another question: selling the actual Android console. With current consoles, your goal is to have a major presence in big box stores like Best Buy, and with that you understand you can handle a margin of loss because you know the stores will be stocked with software as well. So you’re making money back right away. Whereas the Ouya, they don’t have all those games to sell with the box and offset the hardware costs.

GS: Right, but unlike a new Xbox or PlayStation, where they’re swallowing huge initial losses on cutting edge hardware, this Android box could drop real fast in terms of manufacturing costs. Heck, it’s dropping as we speak.

Just like the current generation. You can pick up an Xbox 360 today for $99 with an Xbox Live contract, but it’s taken years for us to get here. Even with mainstream parts, realistically it’s going to be another year, year-and-a-half before the Ouya people have their manufacturing situation streamlined and cost-effective.

GS: To your point about software sales at retail: the Ouya will be the first home game console in thirty-plus years that doesn’t use physical media to ship games. No discs, no flash media; it’s just pure download. Could bandwidth for the storefront and services end up becoming a cost issue?

Right now, that figures more into internet service providers and less into actual connected users, numbers of megabytes, or simultaneous downloads. But we’re seeing a major shift there on the mobile side, with proprietary markets, streaming, cloud sharing and storage. If that becomes a dominant model on Ouya, then we may begin to see more costs filtering down to the consumer, and that may be a tough sell.

GS: It needs to be wrapped-up in a high quality user experience, where the service itself is top notch. It’s likely going to be more streamlined than buying digital goods on current consoles. Even the console itself apparently boots up lightning fast.

There’s a lot of cool potential there, like the fact that Ouya is going to be in an Android ecosystem where instant in-app purchases are the norm – unlike the current consoles in this area, where it surprises me how slow they still are in many ways.

GS: Could the Ouya become a champion of smaller, casual, shorter-session games in the living room? Maybe something that appeals to Mom and Dad for quick plays on the big screen?

Just knowing that I would have to come back to my living room to continue a casual game would immediately make it less casual.

In theory, sure it could. I think the wave that they’re maybe fighting against is the rapid adoption of the smartphone, iPad and tablet as gaming platforms. Granted, it’s really nice to play games in the living room on the big screen, but for most casual games you really don’t need that big screen to play. And if I had to trade-off between playing casual games in my living room versus carrying the game wherever I want to go, I would choose portability.        

GS: Do you see a trend happening where developers create shorter-session game experiences on Ouya, but they include some form of extended gameplay for mobile devices that people can take with them?

The reason why most casual gamers are more comfortable with their smartphones, to some degree, is the interface.

Overall, for those casual players and games, I have to wonder if the controller will be the right device. The reason why most casual gamers are more comfortable with their smartphones, to some degree, is the interface. Especially for folks that don’t have the deep console background to draw from.

GS: The kind of players, when you put an analog stick controller in their hands, they start waving it around to move their character – even when there’s no motion-based gameplay involved?

[Laughs] Yeah, like: “This is too much! How do I move? What button should I press? Oh forget it, it’s too intimidating. I don’t even want to play now.”

GS: I suppose good developers will find ways to use the controller’s front touchpad. You could figure out some pretty accessible control schemes for casual games that use the touchpad and – let’s say – just a single analog stick, or a couple of buttons.

But I think at the end of the day, instead of fitting into that, what they’re going for with this console is the console demographic and the console business. And despite what the doomsayers talk about, I think there’s always going to be a place for consoles and dedicated console gameplay. There’s always going to be hardcore fans and players who want the latest and cutting edge, in terms of graphics, story, and immersive play.

GS: Do you think it’s that type of player that will speak up and say, “Hey, why should I buy this when I can pick up an Xbox 360 for $99 plus contract, and it’s actually X amount more powerful than the Ouya?”

Right, if the game quality is still that much better on a dedicated console than it is on this, people are probably going to go for the dedicated console option – especially as the price range tips over.

GS: That brings us back to the software scenario. Some people are simply burnt-out on spending big bucks for premium games on traditional consoles. They might be genuinely excited about having another way to get their games.

I agree, and if anything, the Ouya serves as a forcing function: to force Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft to get their shit together and do the things that people are clamoring for. Clearly people want in-app purchases and a variety of digitally downloaded games at varying price points.

Obviously we’re moving in that direction, with more free and upgradeable games on Xbox and other console app stores, but it’s only a matter of time before they figure out: look at social, look at mobile, look what’s going on in Asia – all the stuff happening there. You can make a lot of money with in-app purchases, and yet still price your games sensibly.

If anything, the Ouya serves as a forcing function: to force Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft to get their shit together and do the things that people are clamoring for.

GS: So if you were working with Ouya developers, you’d be encouraging Freemium across the board?

Oh, definitely. From what I’ve heard, all the games are going to be, at minimum, free to try, or with significant free gameplay. There are so many smart ways to do that without compromising your game.

GS: There’s also open pricing on Ouya. Let’s say studios start doing larger, more premium experiences. It’s console, so people are used to paying fifty dollars for a major game. What becomes the high price point for those premium games on Ouya?

Well, the nice thing about cutting out the physical retailer is that they can also cut out that margin completely. So a totally AAA game could potentially get away with being $30 on Ouya. I think the idea of opening up to in-app purchases could make a huge difference there. By the time it comes out, once some developers are actually building larger games for it, the console’s marketplace will begin to carve out those prices and settle into a model.

GS: A lot of mobile guys have told me that they think the Ouya’s controller has the potential to be a big seller as a general purpose Android gaming accessory. With Google pushing controller-based gaming now, and the controller’s slick design and approachable price, why not?

Yeah, why not? If you’re going to spend that much effort on the design and making a beautiful controller that works well, and if I’m going to use the controller for some of my favorite Android games, then yeah, I’d definitely go ahead and pick one up.

GS: But how convenient is it, spatially speaking, to prop up your tablet and find a way to comfortably play a game with a controller?

Granted, it would be kind of strange to be playing a tablet or phone game using a controller. In that case, I’d probably just boot up the Xbox 360 or PS3 instead.

GS: Or you might just go ahead and connect your tablet or phone to the TV via HDMI, and off you go. Where’s the Ouya in that equation?

That makes me think of the Phantom console. At first it was meant to be this whole set top box thing, and then bit by bit it was reduced, until all of a sudden it was just narrowed down to this keyboard accessory.

GS: Hopefully a year from now the Ouya console hasn’t been reduced to the Ouya controller. Realistically, I think the Ouya has more going for it than the Phantom ever did – not to mention great timing.

It has multiple elements going for it.

The fact that it’s a new digital-only console and they embrace in-app purchases already opens the doors for new possibilities.

The big question about Kickstarter campaigns is that they tend to build a ton of excitement early on, but the actual follow-through hasn’t performed. There are no guarantees. You’re often asking, “OK, what happened to all this money?”

Eight million dollars is a lot of money, and while it seems to be going forward, if they’re not able to produce the console for whatever reason, it’s going to raise a lot of questions about Kickstarter.

GS: I guess they’re legitimized by high-profile early backers and board members, but even the Phantom had some of that. Big name investment is no guarantee.

Yeah, just look at 38 Studios. A lot of big money there, and unfortunately we see what can happen.

GS: This type of venture is all about early adopters and pre-sales. Do you see yourself as one of the early guys taking an Ouya home as soon as it’s available?

Me, personally? Yeah. It’s because of my background in console, and I’m also interested in in-app purchase games and where that’s taking us. Also, I’m just a fan of interesting gadgets like this. My bigger question, though: The current audience that’s interested in console, will they be on board?

GS: Regardless, is it going to come too late? I think if something like this, a very cheap new game console and media streaming box, was available right now –

— If it was out right now, I’d probably buy it in a second. I’m not sure it’s going to be too late, though. Right now there are a lot of transitions and trends happening that could help push its adoption. We’re pushing the adoption of smartphones and tablets for gaming, shifting away from a sharp console focus with the traditional hardware vendors.

I think a lot of the Ouya’s functionality, by the time it comes out, will have been adopted by a lot of other mediums – whether it’s new Smart TVs, OnLive, or progressive digital sales on console. So people are currently being exposed to the kind of trends that Ouya is pushing, which absolutely benefits them.

People are currently being exposed to the kind of trends that Ouya is pushing, which absolutely benefits them.

GS: It’s interesting because it gives developers time to work on an Android game for a designated spec. You look at the fragmentation on Android today, and it’s difficult to tell what device can run a particular title. The Ouya is sort of like a unified Android spec in a sea of fragmentation.

That’s very true. As a player, it could be interesting to experience the full range of Android games out there, but also have those games that were built primarily to exploit the console.

GS: Plus, how many of us own multiple consoles? A lot of people. An inexpensive Android console might find a place by the TV alongside your “main” game console.

But is it ever going to replace my full console experience? Like, I’m probably going to want to play Call of Duty and Halo on whatever the latest platform is. Not just because I’m a gamer, but because it’s going to provide the superior overall experience for those types of games.

GS: Something that seems to be trending in consoles is the second screen device. It’s obviously a key feature for the Wii U, Sony’s been poking around with it on portables, and Microsoft has the Glass technology. Do you see any pressure to mimic such features on Ouya?

Potentially, I could see maybe a handful of games being able to really, truly take advantage of that. Fundamentally, I wouldn’t be playing a console game just because it has two screens going. It’s one of those things, at the end of the day, it adds to the experience, but it doesn’t crucially alter it. Not yet.

Compared to – let’s say – motion control like Kinect: that can fundamentally change the experience and expand the console’s demographic of players. I think the kind of people that would be nerding-out on a second screen – “Wow, I’m pressing buttons on my phone and it’s doing stuff on the other screen, but I’m still using my controller, cool!” – are still the same demographic happy to play with a controller.

GS: Let’s suppose the Ouya really explodes, and one of the major firms in the industry looks to acquire it. Who do you think would be an ideal suitor for the Ouya?

That’s funny, I was talking about this with some folks recently. We were thinking Google and Amazon.

GS: My first pick was Google as well. How about Nvidia? It might be surprising, but the console could be a vessel for them to propagate the Tegra 3 chipset – or possibly Tegra 4 – into the TV console market.

That might be a cool idea, and probably great on a tech level, but from my experience it seems Nvidia is more about driving their technology, whether it’s physical tech or engineering, into other devices. If they really needed a more key product to help push the rest of their line-up, then maybe, but the PC essentially serves as that function.

GS: It’s a stretch, but the Ouya would sort of be a way to showcase their mobile chipset on a very inexpensive, download-only game console.

I’m sure there are already plenty of mobile devices being made and largely targeted towards core gamers out there looking for a deeper, richer experience on their phone or tablet. So I think it’s a bit of a reach for Nvidia.

GS: You’re probably right, and Nvidia already gains from the exposure their hardware is receiving without betting the farm on the device. Google is a safer bet, and Amazon seems to be jumping into the gaming space significantly on Kindle. That Amazon model could work just as well on Ouya.

Absolutely; this could represent – similar to Microsoft’s play with the Xbox – a way for Amazon to get into the living room. Amazon has all these media delivery services, whether its books, music, or games, so this type of device could only benefit them. I think everyone agrees at this point that the strategy Microsoft took with the Xbox, especially with Live and getting so many people to subscribe, it’s been very effective for them. It’s especially true now, with being able to have all these channels and streaming services on the TV. So if that’s a strategy that Google and Amazon are aiming for…

GS: And if they don’t want to start from scratch –

— Right, here’s a real opportunity for them to do something. Especially if they have an OnLive-type service rolled up into the product, here’s an opportunity to play the latest and greatest PC and console games, plus all of Amazon’s other services, with a sophisticated in-app purchase system.

GS: It may be pretty compelling for families: a simple little box with high-definition capabilities and large quantities of media available for every person in the household, plus games you can’t get elsewhere.

If nothing else, I think it could push the big console players to act faster and do what people are asking for.

If nothing else, I think it could push the big console players to act faster and do what people are asking for. Things like comprehensive in-app purchases, opening up the console demographic and environment so there’s not so many hoops to jump through, tweaking and re-balancing the way revenue shares work, and taking a fundamentally different approach to developer relations.

GS: For the old school gamers, you hear a lot of excitement about emulation on Ouya. Besides all the other content, the idea that people could run retro console emulators on an open console is pretty compelling.

The first time I heard that, it started to make sense pretty fast. You know there are companies in China that sell these all-in-one boxes equipped with emulators and games? Apparently there’s a big fan base, globally, that wants that.

GS: If you look at how well retro re-releases do on iOS and Android, it makes sense. People seem to accept playing smaller, retro-style games on their phones and tablets, even when elements like the control scheme are inferior to a console experience.

Often on phones and tablets, the reason why people are willing to accept a lower quality bar is because they assume, hey, I’m not playing a full-on console so I need to make compromises when I’m on the go. But if there’s an option to play sitting in front of my TV in high-fidelity on an Xbox 720, is that acceptance for compromise still going to be there?

GS: I think expectations scale with the games. If you’re expecting a smaller, simpler experience, you aren’t necessarily shopping for the next Gears of War, and nothing less.

True – but again, there’s nothing stopping a Microsoft or Sony from also opening that up on a larger scale, with larger collections of smaller, free games and expanded services.

GS: The idea of a low-cost HD console with cheap downloadable games might be well-suited to regions of the world that lag behind more industrialized nations. Look at South America: up to a few years ago, the PS2 was still considered a leading console.

If bandwidth is an issue in the US for a download-only console, it might be even tougher for that model to work in developing nations with limited broadband reach and speeds. At this point in a lot of the developing world, mobile penetration is now increasing at a faster rate than PC or console penetration – and so is the support. So a lot of games that here, in North America, may still be aimed at PCs, you find they’re actually being targeted to mobile now in those other nations.

GS: It’s certainly moving with mobile infrastructure. Look at India: they recently jumped from basically 2G speeds to 4G speeds overnight in several urban sectors, and it’s spreading quickly. Other rising nations are in the process of similar, country-wide mobile infrastructure upgrades.

For the regions that don’t necessarily have the experience of moving through several cycles and generations of consoles, and their first experience with something resembling a core game experience is on mobile, it’s going to be difficult for them to go back, or to the side. Especially as they become accustomed to gaming on those widespread devices and services.

GS: I suppose in that regard, the mobile gaming experience – stuff like smaller downloads, in-app purchases – may help to groom those users for similar features on new consoles.

Yeah, but it’s mainly the console guys that are tracking the Ouya at this point. The reason it isn’t on the mobile radar just yet? It’s probably because so many people are moving with this shift to social and mobile gaming.

People are stepping out of the console world, not because they think that market is going to disappear, but because it’s definitely going to get smaller.

As the mobile devices get more sophisticated and gaming experiences get more complex, the subset of people looking elsewhere for a more core gaming experience is dwindling.

GS: I’ll bring up the hobbyist argument there: when somebody takes an interest in a hobby or past-time, you’ll always find a subset of people for whom casual interaction eventually isn’t enough. It’s the graduation effect. When people recognize that their hobby provides richer, more complex options, a portion of those users will seek a way to graduate to a deeper experience.

That’s an interesting one that everybody likes to talk about. So let’s look at Zynga games: say you’re starting out with something like Farmville, and you move to Cityville, then you work your way into Empires & Allies. There’s an increase there in gaming complexity, a path you can measure. You could envision eventually graduating to a StarCraft complexity, let’s say. Now take your typical mid-West mom. She’s playing Farmville and Cityville, maybe she’s trying out Empires & Allies. Do you think that interest level is ever going to leap to something like a StarCraft? There’s a hurdle there.

GS: I’m thinking about the massive wave of younger users that make up the majority of casual game players right now. Users in their teens and twenties are more likely to seek greater complexity or challenges, and are more interested in developing their skills. 

But that’s kind of assuming that right now the younger generation in their teens and twenties all play games. Right now there are young people who just don’t play games. Granted, it’s pretty tough to find people in that age group that didn’t grow up playing video games in some capacity, like with an Xbox or PlayStation in the house.

But I think in this case it’s more about the older generation of gamers, the folks who grew up with Atari, the ones who have been through that whole spectrum of increased interest. I think the people in our generation that were raised on that, we’ll probably still be playing hardcore console games when we’re 60 or 70.

GS: You’re right. It’s kind of what we love playing, and we can’t necessarily go backwards.

And there’s this huge potential audience out there that didn’t grow up with games like we did.

GS: Think about walking into a store back then: we had very little knowledge of the consoles, but a fondness for the idea of playing video games. We didn’t obsess over specs; it was often games in their simplest form that attracted us. Isn’t that analogous to the current situation – not for the mid-West mom, but an influx of younger players?

Potentially, yes, but if they’ve moved on to graduate to the next step, they’re likely to choose the dedicated console out there. The devices made for those types of more advanced experiences. At the end of the day, if you look at the Ouya and its capabilities, a lot of it is really catering to the existing hardcore fanboys and gamers who are maybe looking for another community or a new, different library.

GS: Certainly if you look at the Ouya demos, you see a dashboard loaded with stuff like Minecraft, Madden, Torchlight 2, shooters. Obviously the initial pitch is a shout-out to hardcore gamers.

But if you think about it from the perspective of a more hardcore, mass-market gamer, are they going to want to deal with things like constant downloads? If there’s the alternative to use an easier-to-play console, something you can optionally just drop a game into, it might be a preferred choice.

GS: That loops back into the concept of owning multiple consoles. It may be more prevalent than any other generation: today you find so many gamers that own both a PS3 and Xbox 360, or more likely a Wii and one of the HD consoles.

That’s a credit to the consoles themselves this generation, and people seeking fundamentally different experiences offered by each console. Someone with a PS3 and 360, usually it’s because they want the killer exclusive or a type of gameplay unique to the console. Someone with a Wii and an Xbox, it’s because they wanted to experience the Wii’s unique type of content.

Whereas with the Ouya, what’s going to be the fundamental differentiator there, compared to – let’s say – an Xbox 720? Especially when, presuming they get their shit together, the big console guys move into in-app purchases more aggressively and intelligently.

GS: Until the Ouya really establishes those key differentiators, it may have to rely on a low cost of entry and optional services – like getting consumers to buy the box as an extra streaming device for a TV in the house. The games will have to sort themselves out, right?

You need people – users, developers – to ask: does it make sense for this Android game to be played on the TV?

You need people – users, developers – to ask: does it make sense for this Android game to be played on the TV? If anything, the control schemes will have their basis in touch gameplay. The majority of mobile games that I play which use a touch joystick, honestly I’m left feeling that clearly they didn’t think this one through. If developers really spend the time to come up with something that plays properly, naturally, using actual control sticks, it’s going to feel a lot better than those experiences. That’s what it’s going to take.

GS: Right, you don’t want to see a dozen games built for something like a high end tablet, where they’ve tacked-on substandard gamepad support at the end of production, and presto: It’s an Ouya game, but with merely average gameplay.

That’s a good point. The reality of porting over to Ouya is that you’ll have to consider dedicated peripheral support from the start, with a completely different control mechanism from the mobile version.

GS: To be fair, some developers have come up with pretty tight control schemes on phones and tablets for hardcore genres. You can even find shooters with fairly decent interfaces. Ideally, these are the studios that will know how to work with the Ouya’s spec.

But would I want to play that ported game on my big screen TV, when I can play a major Halo or Call of Duty title – games fully optimized for the console space? I’ll play those hardcore games on my phone when I want to check out something on the go, but when it comes to spending ten, fifteen, twenty hours of my time to sit down with an experience, I’m probably looking to my dedicated console.

GS: Maybe what’s needed is the “medium-session” game? No multi-gigabyte, 100-hour beasts, and no mobile-style two minute time-killers, but instead, a happy medium. There’s a fertile middle-ground on console between monolithic Skyrim epics and accessible PopCap-style experiences.

With the quality levels in smaller games today, and you can see where we are right now with XBLA and PSN games, I really think there’s an opportunity on Ouya similar to Xbox Live.

Why can’t the Ouya free up some of those developers and maybe welcome them with more open opportunities?

The advantage of the Ouya spec is that you could potentially see indies and smaller teams making games for both dedicated console digital storefronts and the Ouya.

GS: I think the OnLive element is going to play a role there. It sort of allows the Ouya people to say, look, obviously we’re not Xbox 720 or PS4, but here’s access to the latest AAA masterpiece, and here’s a proper controller to play it. Even basic consumer knowledge tells the average buyer that a $99 console couldn’t possibly be as powerful as the new Xbox or PlayStation.

Yeah, and if it’s able to smoothly stream the latest high end multi-platform releases, it could provide a similar gameplay environment and still satisfy those users.

GS: It’s interesting, as you mentioned earlier, how that plays into the popular notion that all gaming will be done by proxy or via the cloud going forward. Funny how the Ouya loops back into so many hot topics, huh?

I like how it gets us talking about the game industry as a whole. As I said earlier, it has become this big compilation of features and trends that everyone is talking about. Whether Ouya manages to find an audience or goes on to fade away, it’s getting people to talk about stuff that matters.

Whether Ouya manages to find an audience or goes on to fade away, it’s getting people to talk about stuff that matters.

GS: Agreed, and I’d say it’s the most tangible piece of vaporware we’ve seen in a long time. Thanks so much for a great round of observations, Jim.

My pleasure!